Desire - calling up Cenobites: Discussion

Please post here on general Doug Bradley-specific topics. (anything NOT Doug Bradley-related, please post in the Off Topic forum)
AnonRommel
Tender Prey
Joined: 08 Nov 2004, 13:38

08 Nov 2004, 07:25 #1

"Things that make you go, 'Hmmm....'."
I was mulling over the statement Pinhead makes in HR2, when he stops his minions from hurting Tiffany.
(Paraphrase) "NO. It is not hands that call us - it is... desire."
(And he looks right at the place where Channard was hiding with Julia).
They leave Tiffany alone, even though they can't seem to resist playing with Kirsty, whether she opened the box or not.
Opinion Time for the sake of Discussion
I think Tiffany was left alone because she was mindlessly solving the box for a man who desired it to be opened for his own reasons. Julia sort of blindsides the Cenobites by shoving Channard into the Cenobitomatic =) , and they can't pursue him as a man to torment in Hell if he's a Cenobite. Channard was their target, though. He had the box opened in a desire to solve the mystery of death and life-after-death, but also, most likely, with an eye toward wanting immortality. Plus, considering his sins of torture and cruelty to patients in the basement of the Institute, he's pretty ripe for the tormenting by Cenobites.
I believe the reason they could go after Kirsty was because she was present out of desire - the desire to save her father, and also because, though she hadn't opened the box this time, she had before - and though she traded Frank for her own soul, they were still denied the fun of playing with her.
Selling/Buying the Box
I think it's great that the box is so often sold to the solver. If desire triggers the Cenobites arrival, what better way to assure that desire is present than making a person purchase the box, generally, we assume, for a LOT of bucks.
Innocence/Guilt
Even though Cenobites seem to orchestrate punishments for those in Hell, I'm not sure you can always assume the person they are after is innocent or guilty. Frank, obviously, was guilty of plenty, as were Joseph and Trevor. But Kirsty hasn't done much by HR2 except desire to save an innocent. (And obviously, Larry Cotton isn't there because he WAS innocent, ergo, he's in Heaven). Kirsty qualifies by HR6 for a guilty person, bringing down those 5 souls. She's justified for Trevor and his murder-plot pal, IMO, but not really for the women. She was ticked off, sure - they slept with her husband. But I don't believe they deserved a Cenobite's attention for that. Maybe Trevor lied to them to get them? I can see the Boss woman being a guilty person, but Sage and the neighbor girl seemed innocent enough, that we know of.
I don't think Channard counts for the Cenobite rules in general, and here's why:
Channard as a Cenobite (aren't folks using "Surgeon" as his Cenobite handle?) didn't seem to be playing by the rules, in the POV of Leviathan. Pinhead spared Tiffany, but Channard was going after her specifically. Even when they were after Kirsty, they weren't necessarily going to hurt Tiffany; the two women just happened to be together when they entered the room Pinhead and the rest were in. Also, there seemed to be no rhyme or reason to Channard suddenly getting his knives stuck, and his head torn off, unless it was Leviathan destroying him. Why destroy him? I think it was because he wasn't obeying the rules by which the Cenobites play, presumably set up by Leviathan, so Leviathan took him out.
Then we come to desire in the case of Pinhead himself. Why does he go caddywompus in HR3? Seemingly breaking a LOT of the rules of the Cenobites himself?
I think this was due to a few things. (going for the No-Prize here, bear with me. *wink* I know the fiscal and script reasons why, but I'm reaching for a mythos reason why).
1. Pinhead was seriously ticked at getting defeated by Channard and stuck in a torture column.
2. Kirsty had brought Elliott to the surface of Pinhead's consciousness, and dredged up "the confusion" that Kirsty told them they had in HR2 (although I'm not sure how she knew that tidbit, without going for coffee with Pinhead at some earlier point). But Elliott was trying to get Pinhead shipped back to Hell to save people, and it had to be distracting and threatening for Pinhead.
3. The combination of 1 and 2 produced a "rabid" response in Pinhead for a time, resulting in the massacres in HR3. I think this "I'm mad as heck and not gonna take it anymore" bad mood leaked over into HR4.
Obviously, he "got better", since in HR5 he's back to doing his "job" properly without breaking Cenobite rules. The main desire he still seems to harbor is for Kirsty. We know Elliott considers her a friend, too - could that complicate matters for her? Making Pinhead fixate on her more than he otherwise might?
*This is sort of thinking aloud to induce discussion* =) What does everyone think?
Tsch, Anon.
"If you can't be a good example, be a dire warning." - Unknown.
Tschüß,
Anon."If you can't be
a good example, be a dire warning." -
Unknown.
Reply

Hell Site Pixie
Tender Prey
Joined: 22 Sep 2004, 20:06

08 Nov 2004, 11:20 #2

Hello again... Image
You've obviously been having a brain burner of an analysis session! Image But I think we all go through the *why did Pinhead make the desires comment with regard to Tiffany, yet still go after Kirsty?*
As you say, Tiffany just toyed with the configuration as a matter of puzzle solving...but when we watch her, she looks about herself as each touch brings the cenobites closer...I would argue that she had enough problem solving ability to know that her digit manipulations were the cause of the atmosphere and creakings! So therefore is that true innocence? Does that not indicate a desire to continue pursuing matters to the end result, regardless of what is being triggered? Based on a broad spectrum theory of desire...surely that would qualify her as *'bite fodder* too...unless the desire aspect is more to do with an intimacy with the box at the time of opening...which I shall address next! Image
When Kirsty is shown on video in HR3 she talks about the box and the way it behaves, she becomes almost trancelike in her recollections of how her fingers moved and explored the surfaces, as if her mind became at one with the box, and the box itself were instructing her. My deduction from her interaction with the box is that if a person can feel the Configuration's essence, and will let themselves be manipulated into making the *opening* moves and unlocking the cenobites, then that is a mind that has called to them, and that is what the cenobites interpret as *desire*. So perhaps Kirsty always had a strange desire within her that she cannot bear to acknowledge, and it is that desire that Pinhead can feel, hence he is so intent to pursue her in the name of helping her recognise those *stirrings* within!
So in Tiffany's case she was a simple automaton, she opened the puzzle because she could, and was capable of doing it through simple logical steps, and not because she mentally linked to the cube and received subliminal guidance...therefore unassisted, she was absent of desire in the intimate scenario.
Likewise with the buyers, I am sure it is the *scent* of their needs that brings the box to them for whatever price they will pay!
Ta da! I'm off for coffee! Image Lovely to see you again.
Hugs & mental whirrings
Pixie xxxx
Reply

AnonRommel
Tender Prey
Joined: 08 Nov 2004, 13:38

08 Nov 2004, 21:16 #3

That's a very good point about the box! I like it! Tsch, Anon."If you can't be a good example, be a dire warning." - Unknown.
Tschüß,
Anon."If you can't be
a good example, be a dire warning." -
Unknown.
Reply

Hell Site Pixie
Tender Prey
Joined: 22 Sep 2004, 20:06

08 Nov 2004, 21:59 #4

I'm glad you enjoyed it! Image It is a pleasure to feed your inquisitive mind! Keep it coming. Image
Hugs & mental floss
Pixie xxx
Reply

Dagreatest Jnior
Tender Prey
Joined: 28 Oct 2004, 05:06

10 Nov 2004, 03:06 #5

roflmfao ure funny with ur long stories anon hahaha ure making me laugh so sht bro Image

JunioRImage
Reply

Dagreatest Jnior
Tender Prey
Joined: 28 Oct 2004, 05:06

10 Nov 2004, 03:10 #6

Well i think they didnt take her for the reason that Kirsty was most important cuz she pissed them off in the 1st Image

JnIoRImage
Reply

rebekulah
Tender Prey
Joined: 23 Sep 2004, 03:29

11 Nov 2004, 08:02 #7

this is great stuff! man i have been missing out! as far as tiffany goes, shes a channard victim and god knows channard was crazy obsessed, if given the choice, id go after channard myself.
i thought i read somewhere once that the box depending on who opened it got all the pleasures of heaven OR all the pleasures of hell.. of course that intermingles with the whole pain is pleasure and vice versa thing, seemed to me that frank was pretty okay there until julia got to him. even though he complained about the teasing being hell, i usually look at the sexual tension thing albeit maddening sometimes is usually the most pleasurable part of a pairing. and if you got all the pleasures of heaven in a literal sense it would make for a dull movie!!
and i dont know, i often think maybe with k and p, like lechter and clarice, "people will think we're in love" thats kind of the way i see those two characters developing throughout the movies.
maybe in hellseeker somehow kirsty facilitated the hubbys getting a hold of the box, i love the whole woman scorned theme but maybe that only works when youre a cynic like me. pixie, dont let me start penis bashing again! lol!
love,
bekkabuckyboo
"..drink me or i'll drown in a sea of giants..."
Reply

rebekulah
Tender Prey
Joined: 23 Sep 2004, 03:29

11 Nov 2004, 08:04 #8

and i guess i could flat out ask doug about that but its such a fan kinda question, i would rather us figure all of this out on our own! lol! ive seen some of the freaky people hes been exposed to at some of these conventions! of course all of us are cool! Image
"..drink me or i'll drown in a sea of giants..."
Reply

Hell Site Pixie
Tender Prey
Joined: 22 Sep 2004, 20:06

11 Nov 2004, 11:17 #9

Hey...it's my scallywag! Image How ya doing Bekka-very-busy-pod?! hope you're armed with a wooden spoon if you are planning on penis bashing!! Image
Hugs & tape
Pixie xxxx
Reply